美國CNN名嘴拉里•金為何“語塞”？--霸權(quán)主義邏輯終將徹底失語

                                                             美國CNN名嘴拉里•金為何“語塞”？
                                                                     ——霸權(quán)主義邏輯終將徹底失語

        《內(nèi)賈德接受CNN國嘴采訪續(xù)》一文，很精彩，轉(zhuǎn)錄如下：
        拉里•金：總統(tǒng)先生，采訪時(shí)間已經(jīng)結(jié)束了，但是我還有幾個(gè)問題想問你一下，不知道可以嗎？
        內(nèi)賈德：可以。
        拉：還是關(guān)于核武器的問題，伊朗真的不會(huì)發(fā)展核武器嗎？這是我們非常擔(dān)心的事情？
        內(nèi)：我想問一下，這個(gè)世界上曾有哪些國家把原子彈丟到別的國家領(lǐng)土上，除了美國還有誰？請(qǐng)你給我指出來？
        拉：……（語塞）
        內(nèi)：世界更應(yīng)該擔(dān)心的是美國而不是伊朗，伊朗不僅沒有把原子彈丟到別的國家領(lǐng)土上，更沒有核武器。   為什么要擔(dān)心伊朗？只要因?yàn)槊绹恕皳?dān)心”就可以傷害其他國家的人嗎？美國因?yàn)椤皳?dān)心”，就可以傷害伊拉克、阿富汗、伊朗嗎？美國人是這樣想問題的嗎？只要“擔(dān)心”我就要傷害人？……我懷疑這種想法是不是人類的心理。
        拉：美國把原子彈丟到日本是因?yàn)橐粓?chǎng)正義的戰(zhàn)爭，世界都知道這是對(duì)法西斯的打擊，這對(duì)世界早日和平具有積極的意義。
        內(nèi)：我沒有說那不是反法西斯，反法西斯為什么不把原子彈投到日本軍國主義的頭上，不把原子彈投到日本軍隊(duì)的頭上，而是投到幾十萬無辜百姓的頭上？這是美國人講的人權(quán)嗎？……請(qǐng)你再告訴我，美國打擊日本是正義之戰(zhàn)嗎？那肯定是正義之戰(zhàn)嗎？
        拉：消滅法西斯當(dāng)然是正義之戰(zhàn)！全世界對(duì)美日之間的戰(zhàn)爭性質(zhì)都非常清楚，這難道還有什么懷疑嗎？
        內(nèi)：我是有些懷疑，我想問美國，既然消滅日本法西斯是正義的，就應(yīng)該糾正日本過去戰(zhàn)爭中犯的一切錯(cuò)誤，為什么至今日本人侵占中國的釣魚島還在日本的手里？為什么日本還宣稱擁有釣魚島？為什么美國還表示支持？
        拉：……（語塞）那是中日之間的事情，我不太清楚。
        內(nèi)：美國人總是在關(guān)鍵的時(shí)候裝糊涂，就像你現(xiàn)在一樣。
        拉：……（徹底無語）
        內(nèi)賈德是伊朗總統(tǒng)，大家的印象是此人作風(fēng)強(qiáng)硬，口無遮攔。那么，拉里•金呢？國人可能不大熟悉。我查了一下，不得了，此人在美國可是家喻戶曉的明星人物。據(jù)說，在美國傳媒界數(shù)一數(shù)二，被譽(yù)為“廣播訪問節(jié)目的拳王阿里”。他訪問過的名人紅星數(shù)不勝數(shù)，從福特總統(tǒng)開始，每一任美國總統(tǒng)都接受過他訪問。在美國，他被視為是修養(yǎng)、風(fēng)度、睿智、雄辯、膽略以及正義感的化身。傳媒界有這樣一句話：“美國人可以不相信總統(tǒng)，但不能不相信拉里•金！”可見其影響之大。
        這樣兩個(gè)人放在一起唇槍舌劍，人們似乎并不看好內(nèi)賈德。
        可是，事實(shí)并非如此。如今這個(gè)戴著西方“普世價(jià)值”光環(huán)，有著“正義化身”之譽(yù)的美國“國嘴”，這次卻被內(nèi)賈德“三下五除二”，一下就打回原形，露出了自己偏執(zhí)、傲慢、耍賴的嘴臉，屢屢語塞直至徹底失語，這是為什么？
        原因只有一個(gè)：因?yàn)槔?#8226;金頑固地堅(jiān)持著美國人的霸權(quán)主義立場(chǎng)。
        拉里•金的第一次語塞，是回答不了：究竟“是誰威脅了這個(gè)世界？”問題。
        拉里•金站在了霸權(quán)主義立場(chǎng)看問題，認(rèn)為：伊朗對(duì)美國不友好，是個(gè)“邪惡國家”，因此，決不能允許它掌握核技術(shù)；武斷伊朗擁有核技術(shù)，就一定會(huì)掌握核武器，就會(huì)威脅“世界”。
        當(dāng)內(nèi)賈德反詰他：“這個(gè)世界上曾有哪些國家把原子彈丟到別的國家領(lǐng)土上，除了美國還有誰？請(qǐng)你給我指出來？”究竟是早已使用過核武器的美國威脅世界，還是尚未掌握核武器的伊朗？拉里•金雖然心里明白，只有美國使用過核武器，但他沒有勇氣承認(rèn)事實(shí)，因而無法回答，他那雄辯的嘴自然也就“語塞”了！
        拉里•金的第二次“語塞”，是因?yàn)樗麩o法回答內(nèi)賈德對(duì)美國對(duì)日戰(zhàn)爭“正義性”問題的質(zhì)疑：
        其一，既然是正義的反法西斯戰(zhàn)爭，“為什么不把原子彈投到日本軍國主義的頭上，不把原子彈投到日本軍隊(duì)的頭上，而是投到幾十萬無辜百姓的頭上？這是美國人講的人權(quán)嗎？”
        其二，既然消滅日本法西斯是正義的，就應(yīng)該執(zhí)行《波茨坦公告》與《開羅宣言》（日本歸還竊取中國的東北、臺(tái)灣、澎湖列島；日本領(lǐng)土主權(quán)限于本州、北海道、九州、四國島）為什么至今日本人侵占中國的釣魚島還在日本的手里？為什么日本還宣稱擁有釣魚島？為什么美國還表示支持？
        拉里•金站在霸權(quán)主義立場(chǎng)上，自然無法解釋二戰(zhàn)末，美國為了與蘇聯(lián)爭奪戰(zhàn)后勢(shì)力范圍而對(duì)日使用原子彈，以擴(kuò)大影響；更無法解釋為了冷戰(zhàn)的霸權(quán)主義，為了與新中國為敵，背叛原先的反對(duì)日本法西斯主義立場(chǎng)，背棄國際法的事實(shí)。這使這位有著“正義化身”之譽(yù)的美國“國嘴”只得再次閉嘴“語塞”。
        拉里•金第三次“語塞”，直至“徹底失語”，是因?yàn)樽约鹤玖拥霓q解造成的。這位戴著西方“普世價(jià)值”光環(huán)的名嘴，居然把由美國一手造成的釣魚島問題，推說是“那是中日之間的事情，我不太清楚”。
        結(jié)果，被內(nèi)賈德趁勢(shì)輕輕一擊：“美國人總是在關(guān)鍵的時(shí)候裝糊涂，就像你現(xiàn)在一樣”，拉里•金就“徹底失語”了！

附文：

內(nèi)賈德舌戰(zhàn)CNN  美國“國嘴”被打回原形
作者：安居爾  
       一直以來，在我的印象中，伊朗總統(tǒng)內(nèi)賈德是個(gè)思想混亂、行為怪異、不負(fù)責(zé)任、口無遮攔，經(jīng)常在國際社會(huì)惹事生非的主，我甚至曾一度認(rèn)為伊朗人民選這么個(gè)人當(dāng)總統(tǒng)簡直是自作孽。可沒想到啊，沒想到……他近日接受美國有線電視新聞網(wǎng)（即CNN）“拉里·金訪談”節(jié)目專訪的表現(xiàn)，那可真是超級(jí)棒啊！他的修養(yǎng)、風(fēng)度、睿智、雄辯、膽略以及正義感、使命感都不得了，實(shí)屬當(dāng)今世界頂級(jí)人物。我感覺自己被主流媒體多年來刻意編輯、選擇性播出內(nèi)賈德的“片言只語”及視頻、圖片形象給忽悠了。與此相反，拉里·金這個(gè)戴著西方“普世價(jià)值”光環(huán)，有著“正義化身”之譽(yù)的美國“國嘴”，這次被內(nèi)賈德打回原形，露出了自己偏執(zhí)、傲慢、無知、無賴和小丑的真實(shí)嘴臉。 

       可別小看了這個(gè)拉里·金（Larry King），此人在美國傳媒界數(shù)一數(shù)二，被譽(yù)為“廣播訪問節(jié)目的拳王阿里”。1985年6月，拉里·金開始主持CNN的王牌節(jié)目《拉里·金訪談》，他入行以來做過逾4萬個(gè)訪問，從福特總統(tǒng)開始，每一任美國總統(tǒng)都接受過他訪問，拉里·金訪問過的名人紅星則數(shù)不勝數(shù)。在美國，拉里·金的訪談節(jié)目平均每晚的觀眾人數(shù)都超過100萬。作為金牌主持人，拉里·金在美國被推崇備至，傳媒界流傳這樣一句話：“美國人可以不相信總統(tǒng)，但不能不相信拉里·金。”他的提問以大膽尖銳著稱，而且總是尋根究底，不管受訪者是誰，他都理直氣壯地“拷問”對(duì)方，一張“鐵嘴”什么都敢問。他曾經(jīng)透露自己成功的秘訣，就是在做訪問之前很少甚至完全不做準(zhǔn)備，經(jīng)常臨場(chǎng)發(fā)揮，因?yàn)樗J(rèn)為“最好的訪問者是對(duì)受訪者知道得最少的人。我討厭問自己已經(jīng)知道答案的問題，而且我從不怕問可能很愚蠢的問題”，這種方法被傳媒界認(rèn)為“的確不是一般人能輕易學(xué)會(huì)”的。拉里·金在美國風(fēng)頭出盡，所獲榮譽(yù)獎(jiǎng)?wù)履苎b一籮筐，傳媒界無人能望其項(xiàng)背。

 
       毫無疑問，拉里·金是美國傳媒業(yè)大腕，也是美國的重量級(jí)人物，他對(duì)伊朗總統(tǒng)內(nèi)賈德的“訪談”非同尋常，加之美國和伊朗互相“掐”了30多年，這幾年更是劍拔弩張，此時(shí)的拉里·金“訪談”內(nèi)賈德完全可視為美伊之間輿論戰(zhàn)的尖峰對(duì)決。從他們“談話”的內(nèi)容和態(tài)度看，也的確尖銳對(duì)立，火藥味甚濃，要不是在做“訪談”節(jié)目的話，這兩個(gè)“寶貝”不打起來才怪。

 
       言歸正傳，拉里·金不愧是高手中的高手，他向內(nèi)賈德提出的問題幾乎都有“陷阱”，而且設(shè)有“套中套”、“計(jì)中計(jì)”，偷換概念、避實(shí)就虛這類名堂更是層出不窮，可以肯定一般“人物”將挺不過拉里·金的第一回合。如他的第一個(gè)問題“你喜歡來美國嗎？”就很難回答且暗含“殺機(jī)”，如果內(nèi)賈德說喜歡，拉里·金將大侃美國的“文明和進(jìn)步”，以及美國對(duì)全世界的“影響力”、“吸引力”，肯定會(huì)說：“瞧，連伊朗總統(tǒng)都向往美國”，順便再“惡心”一下伊朗存在的“神權(quán)”和伊朗政府統(tǒng)治下人民的“不自由”、“不幸福”，甚至可能接著提出“既然喜歡有沒有考慮將來移民美國”這類令內(nèi)賈德怒不可遏又不能發(fā)作的問題；如果內(nèi)賈德說“不喜歡”，那拉里·金又會(huì)說“看來你對(duì)美國的怨恨之深已使你喪失了理性，你今天接受采訪恐怕有借機(jī)攻擊美國的意圖，你的言論將很難客觀公正。”

 
       沒想到內(nèi)賈德那是何等人物，不愧為“精英”中的“精英”，他的“戰(zhàn)法”是“誘敵深入”、“將計(jì)就計(jì)”、“避虛就實(shí)”、“直擊要害”，同時(shí)輔以反詰、質(zhì)疑、質(zhì)問，打亂拉里·金的陣腳，讓他失語、失態(tài)，以致失控，最后誘使拉里·金說出內(nèi)賈德他自己想說的話。請(qǐng)看內(nèi)賈德是怎么回答前述拉里·金的第一個(gè)問題，他避過了“喜歡”和“不喜歡”的兩難選擇，而是說在聯(lián)合國這樣一個(gè)大平臺(tái)上各國交流、討論很必要，他看重這次聯(lián)合國大會(huì)各國首腦的一般性辯論，這種回答讓拉里·金毫無文章可做。訪談中亮點(diǎn)多多，最精彩的是美國和以色列能否代表世界的爭辯；最驚人的是關(guān)于歐洲人對(duì)猶太人犯了大罪，但到頭來歐美卻以在巴勒斯坦土地上為猶太人建國來為自己贖罪的對(duì)白；最尊嚴(yán)的是說伊朗對(duì)核武器沒有興趣，認(rèn)為原子彈沒有用，還將堅(jiān)決推動(dòng)世界解除美國和以色列及其他有核國家的核武；最解氣的是說以色列現(xiàn)總理本來就是個(gè)“殺人犯”，美國政府在支持有罪的以色列政府，美國自己也有滅絕印第安人的不光彩歷史；最可笑的是拉里·金也稀里糊涂地說以色列現(xiàn)總理是獨(dú)裁者，每當(dāng)理缺辭窮、惱羞成怒、呼吸困難時(shí)就插播廣告，以便回避問題和找臺(tái)階下。

 
      總之內(nèi)賈德舌戰(zhàn)拉里·金的訪談節(jié)目太有看頭，還是請(qǐng)各位網(wǎng)友直接欣賞吧！

       視頻（含中文字幕）鏈接：

 
                   http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/G533ks4XZ5E/
     

      附件：伊朗總統(tǒng)內(nèi)賈德接受美國有線電視新聞網(wǎng)拉里-金專訪節(jié)目（中英文對(duì)白）

      伊朗總統(tǒng)內(nèi)賈德近日接受了美國有線電視新聞網(wǎng)拉里-金節(jié)目的專訪。美國有線電視新聞網(wǎng)北京時(shí)間9月23日播出了這一采談錄。以下是采談錄實(shí)錄(中英文對(duì)照)：

 
    KING: Mr. President, thank you for coming back to LARRY KING LIVE. Do you like coming to America?

 
    拉里-金(后簡稱為金)：總統(tǒng)先生，感謝你回到拉里-金實(shí)況。你喜歡來美國嗎？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful, I’’d like to say hello to your audience, to you and your colleagues, and ask Almighty God to bring health, prosperity and success to all people and nations and countries。

 
    內(nèi)賈德(后簡稱為內(nèi)，通過翻譯)：奉至仁至慈真主之名，我想向你的聽眾、你、你的同事問好。請(qǐng)求萬能的真主給所有人和所有國家?guī)斫】怠⒎睒s、成功。

 
    I am interested in traveling to all parts of the world to meet with people. The United Nations is an important forum for the exchange of international ideas on how to run international affairs and naturally people like myself should be actively involved in its work。

 
    我對(duì)前往世界各地和人們會(huì)面很感興趣。聯(lián)合國是一個(gè)就如何管理國際事務(wù)進(jìn)行國際想法交流的一個(gè)重要論壇。很自然，像我這樣的人應(yīng)當(dāng)積極參與它的工作。

 
    KING: Let’’s get to some current issues. A few days ago, you released the American hiker, but there is still two captives in Iran. How long will they be detained?

 
    金：讓我們來談一些時(shí)事議題。就在幾天前，你釋放了一名美國徒步者，但仍有兩名徒步者被伊朗關(guān)押。他們要被關(guān)押多長時(shí)間？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Well, they crossed our borders, violated the borders, and a judge will take care of their case。

 
    內(nèi)：哦，他們?cè)竭^了我們的邊境，侵犯了我們的邊境，一位法官將處理他們的案件。

 
    KING: But you did release one. Is there any chance in the name of goodwill that you’’ll release the others? There were two hikers who made a mistake。

 
    金：但你已經(jīng)釋放了其中的一人。是否存在你以良好愿望的名義釋放其他兩位徒步者的可能？兩位徒步者只是犯了一個(gè)錯(cuò)誤。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： That one person was released on bail because of mercy, compassion and as a humanitarian gesture. As for the others, yes, there is a chance, but the judge has to take care of the case。

 
    內(nèi)：一個(gè)人已因?yàn)橥椤z憫、作為一個(gè)人道主義姿態(tài)獲得保釋。對(duì)于其他兩人來說，仍存在保釋的可能性，但法官得處理該案。

 
    KING: Do you know when?

 
    金：你知道是什么時(shí)候嗎？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It depends on the judge who will need to handle the case, issue a verdict. There’’s a process that must go through。

 
    內(nèi)：這取決于處理此案的法官，給出判決，必須走這套法律過程。

 
    KING: Do you have any influence in that process?

 
    金：你是否對(duì)這一過程有任何影響力？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I have no influence over it. But I have suggested for the lady, in her case, that it be regarded with clemency, mercy and more kindness and compassion to allow her to return to her family。

 
    內(nèi)：我對(duì)此沒有影響力，但我就女徒步者案件給出了建議，我建議法官對(duì)此持寬厚、憐憫和更大的善意、同情心，以允許她返回美國與家人團(tuán)聚。

 
    KING: What about bail for the other two?

 
    金：其他兩人是否也能獲得保釋？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It is possible. It depends on the judge。

 
    內(nèi)：這是可能的，這取決于法官。

 
    KING: Would you -- you’’re in New York for a few more days. You will address the U.N. tomorrow. Would you meet with their families if they asked to meet with you?

 
    金：你是否，你還要紐約呆上數(shù)天，你將于明天向聯(lián)合國發(fā)表講演。如果徒步者的家人要求會(huì)見你，你是否會(huì)見他們？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Our program is closed right now in terms of the fact that it is a tight schedule. But I’’d have to consider it. And having said that, I have received no requests。

 
    內(nèi)：我們的活動(dòng)安排現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)結(jié)束了，我們的時(shí)間表很緊，但我愿意考慮這件事。雖然如此，我并沒有收到請(qǐng)求。

 
    KING: But if they did request, might you consider it?

 
    金：但是如果他們確實(shí)提出了請(qǐng)求，你是否會(huì)考慮呢？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes, I would positively take it into consideration。

 
    內(nèi)：是的，我將會(huì)積極考慮他們的請(qǐng)求。

 
    KING: That is hopeful。

 
    金：這是有希望的。我們?cè)儐柫送讲秸啧U爾和法塔爾的家人，他們的母親向你提出了這個(gè)問題。這兩人的母親仍在紐約。

 
    總統(tǒng)先生，當(dāng)你上一次12個(gè)月前在紐約參加聯(lián)合國大會(huì)時(shí)，你承諾將要求司法部門加快處理我們孩子的案件，就案件表現(xiàn)出最大的寬大。這并沒有發(fā)生，我們的心碎了。當(dāng)你返回德黑蘭，你是否會(huì)再次向司法部門提出要求？

 
    We asked the families -- the families of Shane Bauer and Josh Fattal, the two prisoners, and their mothers passed this question along to you. This is from the mothers of the two still there。

 
    Mr. President, the last time you were in New York for the U.N. General Assembly 12 months ago, you promised to ask the judiciary to expedite our children’’s case and show maximum leniency. Our hearts are broken that this has not happened. Please, will you make this request again when you return to Tehran?

 
    內(nèi)：我認(rèn)為，這確實(shí)發(fā)生了。所有的國家在對(duì)待非法越境邊境方面都制訂有嚴(yán)格的法律，對(duì)這樣的行為都要進(jìn)行嚴(yán)懲。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that it did happen. In all countries you have very strict laws and strict punishments for border crossings that are illegal。

 
    金：你是否提出要求-他們?cè)儐柲闶欠褚笏痉ú块T處理此案，他們想念他們的家人。

 
    KING: But did you make the request -- they’’re asking if you would make the request of the judiciary to move it along. They miss their families。

 
    內(nèi)：我認(rèn)為世界上有非常多的犯人。我是否要親自就他們中的每個(gè)人提出要求？

 
    現(xiàn)在，雖然這樣說了，我已要求司法部門仔細(xì)研究三名美國徒步者的案件。你知道，世界上有許多犯人。在美國就有250萬犯人。

 
    我是否可以要求美國的司法部門表現(xiàn)出寬大？事實(shí)上，我將抓住這個(gè)機(jī)會(huì)，要求美國的司法部門對(duì)美國的250萬犯人表現(xiàn)出寬大。他們有配偶，他們有母親、孩子、父母。許多人很年輕。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that there are many prisoners in the world. Do I have to make a personal request for everyone?

 
    Now, having said that, I have requested the judiciary to look at the case of these three people’’s cases carefully but, you know, there are many prisoners in the world. Here in the United States, there are 2.5 million。

 
    Can I request the judiciary here in the United States to show leniency and I would, in fact, seize this opportunity here and ask the judicial body of the United States, judicial leniency, in the case of the 2.5 million prisoners in this country. They have spouses. They have mothers, children, parents. Many are young。

 
    金：我們將在廣告時(shí)間后繼續(xù)與伊朗總統(tǒng)內(nèi)賈德進(jìn)行討論。

 
    KING: We’’ll have more with the president of Iran right after this。

 
    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 
    金：我們回到節(jié)目，內(nèi)賈德總統(tǒng)將于明天向聯(lián)合國大會(huì)發(fā)表講演，美國總統(tǒng)也將向聯(lián)合國大會(huì)發(fā)表講演。我們將隨后談到這一話題。

 
    羅伯特-萊文森的情況如何？他是前聯(lián)邦調(diào)查局特工，他已在伊朗失蹤三年了。人們從未聽到有關(guān)他的消息。首先，你是否能告訴我們，他是否還活著，他的狀況是否還好？

 
    KING: We’’re back with President Ahmadinejad. He will address the U.N. General Assembly tomorrow, as will the president of the United States。

 
    We’’ll ask about that in a minute。

 
    What about Robert Levinson? This is the former FBI agent. He’’s been missing in Iran for three -- over three years, hasn’’t been heard from. First, can you tell us, is he alive? Is he OK?

 
    內(nèi)：我認(rèn)為我們應(yīng)當(dāng)向聯(lián)邦調(diào)查局提出這個(gè)問題。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think we should ask that question from the FBI。

 
    金：但是他是在你的國家里--

 
    KING: But he’’s in your country --

 
    內(nèi)：我怎么會(huì)知道？我怎么應(yīng)當(dāng)知道？有許多人來到伊朗，隨后就離開了。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： How would I know? How am I supposed to know? There are many individuals, many people who come to our country and then leave。

 
    金：所以說你不知道他在哪里？

 
    KING: So you have no idea where he is?

 
    內(nèi)：他來了又走了，和平常一樣，我不知道他在哪里。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： He came and he left. As usual. No。

 
    金：他的家人稱，他的家人稱，你的政府承諾將就萊文森的失蹤提交一份全面報(bào)告，他們?cè)诖酥笪绰牭饺魏蜗ⅰ?/p>

 
    KING: His family says -- his family that they were promised a full report on his disappearance from your government and they have never heard anything。

 
    內(nèi)：我們從未作出過那樣的承諾，我們同意與美國政府成立一個(gè)聯(lián)合的信息和情報(bào)委員會(huì)以收集有關(guān)他下落的信息。我們已表示希望盡快成立這個(gè)委員會(huì)，我們表示，我們作好了加入委員會(huì)的準(zhǔn)備。如果美國聯(lián)邦調(diào)查局愿意提供他伊朗之行目的的更多信息、他知道什么信息、他的其它目的地是哪里，我們可能會(huì)就該案提供進(jìn)一步的幫助。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： We never made that promise. We agreed to have a joint information and intelligence committee with the U.S. government to gather information about his whereabouts, on his whereabouts, and we have expressed hope that this committee will soon be held and we express our preparedness to be part of the committee。

 
    Now if the FBI were to give more information about the purpose of this trip and what information he had and where his other destinations were, we might be able to assist further in the case。

 
    金：但你不知道他在哪里？

 
    KING: But you have no idea where he is?

 
    內(nèi)：你是否有任何信息？我和你一樣，我對(duì)聯(lián)邦調(diào)查局的項(xiàng)目一無所知。我不知道聯(lián)邦調(diào)查局在世界各地從事什么樣的活動(dòng)。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Do you have any information? I’’m like you, I have no idea what the FBI programs are. I don’’t know what the FBI does around the world。

 
    金：我們昨天與他的妻子克里斯丁進(jìn)行了交談。她詢問你是否能提供伊朗官員與聯(lián)邦調(diào)查局會(huì)談和共享信息的時(shí)間和日期？換句話說，她在說，聯(lián)邦調(diào)查局愿意與你坐下來談。你是否能給她一個(gè)時(shí)間和日期？

 
    KING: We talked with -- well, we talked with his wife yesterday, Christine, Mrs. Levinson. She asked that you give her a time and date for officials to meet with the FBI and share information。

 
    In other words, she is saying the FBI is willing to sit down with your people. Can you give her a time and date?

 
    內(nèi)：是的，我接受并同意這一點(diǎn)。當(dāng)人們旅行遇到問題，失蹤，這使我們感到悲傷。這很可怕。我認(rèn)為，當(dāng)所有的情報(bào)組織的活動(dòng)更加透明，建立在更加人道主義的基礎(chǔ)之上，這樣的問題將不會(huì)出現(xiàn)，但我將建議，情報(bào)委員會(huì)應(yīng)當(dāng)聯(lián)合舉行，伊朗和美國的代表可以坐下來，幫助確定他的下落。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes, I accept and agree with that. It saddens us when people travel, run into problems, disappear. It’’s awful。

 
    I think that if all intelligence organizations work more transparently and based on more humanitarian principles, these problems would not arise, but I would recommend that that intelligence committee be held jointly so that the representatives of Iran and the United States can sit together and help trace his whereabouts。

 
    金：你知道，他的女兒將于周六結(jié)婚。

 
    KING: You know, his daughter is getting married Saturday。

 
    內(nèi)：我就她結(jié)婚表示祝賀。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I congratulate her on her marriage。

 
    金：如果她的父親能夠出席，那將是非常美好的。

 
    KING: It will be nice if her father were there --

 
    內(nèi)：我對(duì)她表示同情，肯定，她父親能出席將是一件很好的事情，我希望那樣的事情能夠發(fā)生。我認(rèn)為，美國聯(lián)邦調(diào)查局應(yīng)當(dāng)在這件事更加積極，找到他們的特工。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： And I sympathize with her. Definitely, it would have been very good. I wish that it can happen. I think the FBI should be more active in this case and to find their agent。

 
    金：你知道，總統(tǒng)先生，如果那是你的孩子，如果你的孩子之一越過了另一國的邊境并遭到扣押，你將會(huì)非常擔(dān)心，你將要求盡快處理案件，是否是這樣？

 
    KING: You know, Mr. President, if it were your children -- if one of your children crossed the border of another country and were being held, you would be very concerned and you would press the issue, would you not?

 
    內(nèi)：如果我的孩子違反了法律，正義必須得到申張，因?yàn)榉纱_保安全、穩(wěn)定。必須遵守法律，如果違反了法律，就不會(huì)有安全了。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： If my child violates a law, justice must be served. Because law ensures security. And stability. And laws must be observed because if they are to be violated, there shall be no security。

 
    金：我們回來將討論更多議題。不要走開。

 
    KING: We’’ll be right back with more. Don’’t go away。

 
    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 
    金：我們?cè)俅位貋恚覀冋诓稍L伊朗總統(tǒng)內(nèi)賈德。奧巴馬總統(tǒng)和你都在紐約。如果有機(jī)會(huì)，你是否會(huì)會(huì)晤?yuàn)W巴馬？

 
    KING: We’’re back with the president of Iran, President Ahmadinejad。

 
    With President Obama here and you’’re here, would you meet with him if the opportunity arose?

 
    內(nèi)：這得看情況。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It depends。

 
    金：取決于什么情況？

 
    KING: On?

 
    內(nèi)：我們已宣布，我們作好了在聯(lián)大與他進(jìn)行自由會(huì)談的準(zhǔn)備。

 
    我認(rèn)為，在其它成員國和媒體之前坐下來進(jìn)行，討論我們的觀點(diǎn)將是非常好的事情。在聯(lián)合國進(jìn)行交流。我認(rèn)為，這將是非常積極的，因?yàn)樗械娜硕寄苈牭轿覀兯f的東西。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： We have announced that we are prepared to freely talk with him at the U.N. General Assembly。

 
    I think it would be very good to sit before members of other states and the media and to discuss our views. To have an exchange at the United Nations. I think that would be very positive so that everyone can hear what we have to say。

 
    金：希拉里國務(wù)卿稱，制裁措施正在重創(chuàng)伊朗經(jīng)濟(jì)，甚至伊朗前總統(tǒng)拉夫桑賈尼稱，制裁措施很嚴(yán)重，不能忽視它們。你是否對(duì)制裁措施的效果和仍在持續(xù)的效果感到擔(dān)心？

 
    KING: Secretary of State Clinton says sanctions are biting your economy. Even the former president, Rafsanjani, said that the sanctions are serious, can’’t be dismissed. Are you worried about their effect and their continuing effect?

 
    內(nèi)：在我看來，你提出了數(shù)個(gè)議題。問題是美國政府為什么在聯(lián)合國安理會(huì)制裁措施之外對(duì)伊朗施加了額外的制裁？這不是非法措施嗎？

 
    這是否是美國人民對(duì)伊朗人民、更為重要的是，這是否是美國政府對(duì)伊朗政府?dāng)骋獾谋硎荆?/p>

 
    這是一個(gè)議題。第二個(gè)議題是，對(duì)我們來說，制裁措施真得不重要，因?yàn)槲覀冊(cè)谶^去三十年里一直遭到制裁。此外，我們的經(jīng)濟(jì)也不是建立在美國經(jīng)濟(jì)的基礎(chǔ)之上的，它是一個(gè)自力更生的經(jīng)濟(jì)，因?yàn)槲覀兡軌驖M足自己的需求。

 
    令人感興趣的是，在遭到制裁期間，我們具備了更多的動(dòng)力來從事那些使我們經(jīng)濟(jì)跨越式發(fā)展的活動(dòng)。我們?cè)谶@方面相當(dāng)成功。

 
    現(xiàn)在，我們知道，在美國，許多人非常擔(dān)心，許多人在制裁方面發(fā)出了許多噪音，甚至還援引了伊朗國內(nèi)一些人的說法，這些人看起來對(duì)制裁措施損害伊朗的觀點(diǎn)持同情立場(chǎng)。

 
    但事實(shí)上，我們一點(diǎn)也不擔(dān)心制裁措施，制裁措施事實(shí)上鼓勵(lì)我們更加堅(jiān)定地追求我們的經(jīng)濟(jì)目標(biāo)。

 
    美國政府與我們沒有任何關(guān)系，在過去三十年里沒有任何關(guān)系。他們采取制裁措施又如何？我們?cè)跊]有美國的情況下生活了三十多年，我們已取得了進(jìn)步。

 
    當(dāng)伊朗在美國的控制之下，它是一個(gè)落后的國家。自我們?cè)跊]有美國的情況下開始生活后，我們已成為一個(gè)先進(jìn)國家。這是否對(duì)我們是一件壞事？我認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)積極的步驟。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It seems to me that you’’ve raised several issues. The question is why does the U.S. government place sanctions that are over above those specified by the U.N.’’s Security Council? Is that not an illegal measure?

 
    Is it not indicative of the hostility of the U.S., the American people, towards the Iranian people and the U.S. administration, more importantly, towards the Iranian government?

 
    That’’s one issue. The second issue is that sanctions really are unimportant to us because we have been under sanctions for over 30 years. Furthermore, our economy is not based on the economy of the United States. It is a self-contained economy, an indigenous-based economy because we are able to provide for our own needs。

 
    And interestingly, in the years of sanctions that have been imposed on us, we have also had more incentive to engage in activities that jumpstart and trigger our economy and we’’ve been quite successful。

 
    Now we know here in the United States, many are very concerned -- many have made a lot of noise over the sanctions and have even identified people in Iran who seem to sympathize with views here that sanctions harm Iran。

 
    But really, that’’s of no concern to us because in -- on the ground sanctions have, in fact, encouraged us to be firmer in the pursuit of our economic goals。

 
    The United States government has no relations with us. Has had none for over 30 years. So what is it that they are sanctioning? We have lived without the United States for over 30 years. And we have advanced。

 
    When Iran was under the yoke of the United States, it was a backward country. Since we started living without the United States, we have become an advanced country. Is that bad for us? I think it’’s quite a positive -- step to take。

 
    金：你是否理解有關(guān)對(duì)伊朗核武器的擔(dān)心？考慮到地區(qū)國家的所有敵對(duì)情況，你是否理解有關(guān)伊朗擁有核武器的擔(dān)心？這可能會(huì)引發(fā)一些你可能從未啟動(dòng)的一些事情。

 
    KING: Do you not understand the fears about nuclear -- nuclear weaponry in your country? With all the hostility in the region, don’’t you understand the fears over your having nuclear weapons? That could trigger something that you might not even start。

 
    內(nèi)：誰在擔(dān)心？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is concerned?

 
    金：世界在擔(dān)心。

 
    KING: The world is concerned。

 
    內(nèi)：誰是世界？誰代表了世界？美國？它的朋友？不，世界是一個(gè)非常大的地方。美國官員的錯(cuò)誤在于他們視自己為世界，但他們并不是世界。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is the world? Who represents the world? The United States? Its friends? No, the world is a very big place. And what U.S. officials are wrong about is that they see themselves as the world but they are not。

 
    金：好吧，以色列總理內(nèi)塔尼亞胡最近參與我們的節(jié)目。他說，我引用他的話“人類面臨的最大威脅是伊朗將獲得核武器，人類，這就是世界。

 
    如果以色列對(duì)持強(qiáng)烈的看法，你對(duì)他們不作出直接的保證，你是否擔(dān)心他們可能會(huì)首先發(fā)起軍事打擊行動(dòng)？

 
    KING: All right. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu was a guest recently on our program and he said, quote, "The greatest threat facing humanity." Humanity. That’’s the world. "Is that Iran would acquire nuclear weapons."

 
    If Israel feels that strongly and you don’’t directly assure them, don’’t you fear that they might do a first strike?

 
    內(nèi)：所以你認(rèn)為，我們感到擔(dān)心，我們應(yīng)當(dāng)對(duì)減輕內(nèi)塔尼亞胡的恐慌和擔(dān)心感到擔(dān)心？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： So you think that we are concerned -- we should be concerned about allaying Mr. Netanyahu’’s fears and concerns?

 
    金：是的。

 
    KING: Yes。

 
    內(nèi)：我們?yōu)槭裁匆獮樗髂菢拥氖拢克钦l？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Why should we be doing that for him? Who is he?

 
    金：他是一個(gè)國家的元首

 
    KING: He’’s the head of a country --

 
    內(nèi)：首先，他是誰？他是一個(gè)老練的殺人犯。世界上所有的獨(dú)裁者曾譴責(zé)過其他人，他是獨(dú)裁者中的一位。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is he in the first place, to begin with? He is a skilled killer. All dictators in the world have condemned others, and he’’s one of many of them。

 
    金：也許

 
    KING: Maybe --

 
    內(nèi)：他應(yīng)當(dāng)為殺害巴勒斯坦人、封鎖加沙而受到審判。對(duì)加沙的封鎖違反了法律和聯(lián)合國憲章。

 
    他應(yīng)當(dāng)為殺害婦女和兒童而遭到審判，你想減輕他的恐懼和擔(dān)心？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： He should be put on trial for killing Palestinians, for placing Gaza under siege, which is against the law and against the spirit of the charter of the United Nations。

 
    He should be put on trial for killing women and children, and you want to allay his fears and concerns here?

 
    金：我想減輕你的擔(dān)心。

 
    KING: I want to allay yours。

 
    內(nèi)：允許我向你問一個(gè)問題。美國媒體為何對(duì)減輕納塔尼亞胡的擔(dān)心和恐懼如此負(fù)責(zé)？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me to ask a question from you. Why does U.S. media feel so responsible for allaying Mr. Netanyahu’’s concerns and fears?

 
    金：因?yàn)?/p>

 
    KING: Because --

 
    內(nèi)：為什么？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Why?

 
    金：如果他將他的擔(dān)心提升到另一個(gè)層次，對(duì)你發(fā)出威脅呢？你難道不擔(dān)心他嗎？你，伊朗？

 
    KING: What if he took his concerns to the next step and threatened you? So shouldn’’t you be concerned about him? You, Iran?

 
    內(nèi)：所以你是在擔(dān)心他可能會(huì)發(fā)動(dòng)戰(zhàn)爭？有人想發(fā)動(dòng)戰(zhàn)爭，他們?cè)趯ふ医杩冢阅銓?duì)此感到擔(dān)心。

 
    我認(rèn)為，控制像內(nèi)塔尼亞胡這樣的人和政權(quán)意圖的方法就是停止支持他。美國政府應(yīng)當(dāng)停止使用美國納稅人的錢來支持他。

 
    美國有三千萬、四千萬窮人，4百萬人無家可歸。美國為什么要花錢讓內(nèi)塔尼亞胡獲得武器，用不同的借口中攻擊黎巴嫩、威脅伊朗？這很可怕，非常可怕。

 
    金：總統(tǒng)先生，所有這些問題看起來都集中在，他是一個(gè)獨(dú)裁者，你是一個(gè)挑起事端的獨(dú)裁者，如果你擁有核武器，他們害怕核武器，你將會(huì)遇到問題，這將給世界造成問題。

 
    你是否會(huì)在這里稱，你現(xiàn)在沒有將來也不會(huì)有核武器？請(qǐng)簡單一點(diǎn)。

 
    KING: All of these problems, Mr. President, seem to center around -- we quibble, he’’s a dictator, you’’re a dictator who started -- if you have a nuclear weapon and they fear a nuclear weapon, you could have a problem that creates a problem for the world。

 
    Would you say here now you do not and will not have nuclear weapons? Be simple。

 
    內(nèi)：我們的第一個(gè)問題是誰是你再次提及的世界？你的意思是內(nèi)塔尼亞胡？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Our first question is who is the world again that you speak of? You mean Mr. Netanyahu?

 
    金：不，如果所有人

 
    KING: No. If anybody --

 
    內(nèi)：誰是世界？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who’’s the world?

 
    金：如果有人向其他人投下核彈，整個(gè)世界都將受到影響，你明白這一點(diǎn)。

 
    KING: If anybody drops a nuclear bomb on anybody, the whole world is involved. You know that。

 
    內(nèi)：請(qǐng)?jiān)试S我，請(qǐng)?jiān)试S我，你知道，在民調(diào)中，海灣地區(qū)百分之八十八的受訪者支持伊朗的核活動(dòng)，所以，誰在擔(dān)心？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me, allow me here. You are aware that in polls, 88 percent of the people in the region support Iran’’s nuclear activities. So who’’s concerned?

 
    金：什么樣的活動(dòng)？

 
    KING: What activities?

 
    內(nèi)：這是第一個(gè)問題，這是伊朗的核活動(dòng)，除了猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)和一些美國當(dāng)局的擔(dān)心之外，在海灣地區(qū)沒有人表示對(duì)伊朗的核活動(dòng)感到恐懼。

 
    我們沒有尋求核武，我們對(duì)此沒有興趣，我們認(rèn)為核武器是沒有用的。我們堅(jiān)定地要求猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)和美國解除核武。

 
    對(duì)世界構(gòu)成威脅的是美國政府和猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)所擁有的核彈。如果他們認(rèn)為發(fā)動(dòng)針對(duì)伊朗的宣傳就可以基本改變公眾輿論，那么他們錯(cuò)了。

 
    我們將在這一議題上持堅(jiān)定的立場(chǎng)，我們將在所有國際組織中提出這一議題，我們將在核不擴(kuò)散評(píng)估進(jìn)程中討論這一議題。核不擴(kuò)散評(píng)估會(huì)議通過的會(huì)議要求猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)處理它的核武庫。

 
    美國政府也必須這樣作以確保猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)的核武庫被解除，因?yàn)槟莻€(gè)政權(quán)是非法的好戰(zhàn)國家。它已證明它對(duì)其神經(jīng)沒有足夠的控制力。它的支持者美國也是如此，美國平白無故地就在伊拉克和阿富汗發(fā)動(dòng)了戰(zhàn)爭。

 
    猶太復(fù)國主義政府和美國沒有掌握核武庫的能力。這一點(diǎn)也適用于所有擁有核武器的國家。它們必須解除核武，因?yàn)楹藦検鞘澜缟献钤愀庾畛舐奈淦鳌Ｄ切碛泻宋淦鞯膰冶仨毥獬宋洹慕褚院鬀]有人再有權(quán)建造核武。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： This is the first question. It’’s Iran’’s nuclear activities. No one expresses fear about Iran’’s nuclear activities in the region except the Zionist regime and the fear of some American authorities。

 
    We are not seeking the bomb. We have no interest in it. And we do not think that it is useful. We are standing firm over the issue that both the Zionist regime and the United States government should be disarmed。

 
    The threat to the world are the bombs that the U.S. government and the Zionist regime have. If they think that by propagating against Iran that they can basically change their public opinion, they are wrong。

 
    We will stand firm on this issue. We will pursue it in all international organizations. We will discuss in the NPT review process. The Zionist regime was required. And the document ratified by the NPT review conference to address its nuclear arsenal。

 
    And so the U.S. government, too, must pursue this idea to ensure that the Zionist regime’’s nuclear arsenal is eliminated because this regime is an illegitimate war-waging country. It has also proved that it does not have sufficient control over its nerves. And not only that nor does its backer, the United States that gets into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan just over nothing。

 
    And this government and the United States still does not have the ability to hold nuclear arsenals. And the same argument holds true for all who possess nuclear bombs. They must all disarm. Because the nuclear bomb is the worst and ugliest form of weapon that there is. And those who have it must disarm. And nobody has the right from now on to build nuclear bombs。

 
    金：包括

 
    KING: Including --

 
    內(nèi)：所以你在這方面的立場(chǎng)很清楚，你必須明白這樣的宣傳是沒有用的。我們沒有核彈，那些擁有核彈的國家應(yīng)當(dāng)解除核武，而不是指責(zé)其他國家擁有或者想擁有核武。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： So our position’’s very clear on this. You must understand that this propaganda is useless. We don’’t have the nuclear bomb. Those who have it have to be disarmed, rather than accuse others of having it or wanting it。

 
    金：我們是

 
    KING: We are in -- we are --

 
    內(nèi)：所有的美國政府和安理會(huì)都非常清楚這一點(diǎn)。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： All the U.S. government knows very well as does the Security Council that --

 
    金：你的回答太冗長了。

 
    KING: You’’re being redundant。

 
    內(nèi)：伊朗沒有核彈，它也不尋求核彈，但我們將持堅(jiān)定的立場(chǎng)，以確保擁有核武的國家解除核武，它們必須解除核武。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Iran does not have a nuclear bomb and that it is not seeking one. But we will stand firm, stand firm, to make sure they will disarm. They must all disarm。

 
    金：很顯然，我們生活在一個(gè)恐懼的世界里，良心，你談?wù)撨^人權(quán)和內(nèi)塔尼亞胡。伊朗的良心如何？學(xué)生，人權(quán)捍衛(wèi)者？你是否應(yīng)當(dāng)在那一領(lǐng)域作出改善？伊朗是否有全面的人權(quán)？伊朗人是否有權(quán)發(fā)表自己的看法，舉行示威活動(dòng)？

 
    KING: We’’re in a world of fear apparently. Conscience -- you talked about human rights and Mr. Netanyahu. How about conscience in your country? Students, human rights defenders? Don’’t you have to improve in the area? Aren’’t there -- are there full human rights in Iran? Does everyone in Iran have the right to speak out, to protest?

 
    內(nèi)：在世界任何地方，你都會(huì)看到那一性質(zhì)的挑戰(zhàn)。在美國也是這樣，有必要在這方面采取更多措施。這里是否有全面的人權(quán)？我們得運(yùn)用比較的方法。我不認(rèn)為，在伊朗，會(huì)有一位在辦公室工作了五十年的雇員因?yàn)榘l(fā)表他或她的看法而遭到解雇，但這樣的事情發(fā)生在美國。一位有著很深厚工作背景的記者僅僅是因?yàn)榘l(fā)表了觀點(diǎn)而被迫辭職。這樣的事情絕對(duì)也永遠(yuǎn)不會(huì)在伊朗發(fā)生。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Everywhere in the world, you see challenges of that nature. In the United States, too, there is need for more on this front. Isn’’t there? So we have to have a comparative skill in our hands. I don’’t think, for example, in Iran, an employee would be fired after 50 years of serving in an office for expressing his opinion or her opinion. But this happened in your country. A reporter with a rich background was forced out of her work simply because she expressed an opinion. This never happened -- would never happen in Iran。

 
    金：從未發(fā)生過？

 
    KING: Never happen?

 
    內(nèi)：現(xiàn)在，在世界各地，我們都有這方面的問題，但這樣的事情絕對(duì)不會(huì)在伊朗發(fā)生。雖然如此，我了解世界各地都有這方面的問題，包括美國在內(nèi)。我們作好在一個(gè)論壇上坐下的準(zhǔn)備，將我們所有的麻煩放在桌子上，就其進(jìn)行討論，一起解決這些問題。

 
    我問你，美國有250萬犯人，不是所有的犯人都是殺人犯、謀殺犯或者小偷，其他人是為何入獄的？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Now, everywhere in the world, we have problems. But this would never have happened in Iran. Having said that, I understand all over the world there are problem, including in the United States. And we are prepared to sit in a forum at a table, place all our troubles on the table and discuss it and resolve it together。

 
    I asked you, you have over 2.5 million prisoners here. Not all of them are killers, murderers or thieves. Who are the rest?

 
    金：你是在說我們有政治犯？

 
    KING: Are you saying we have political prisoners?

 
    內(nèi)賈德：不，這不是我所暗示的，你可以告訴我，他們?yōu)楹稳氇z？為什么？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： No, that’’s not what I’’m suggesting. You can tell me that. Why are they in prison? Why?

 
    金：我沒有對(duì)每個(gè)案件進(jìn)行過調(diào)查，毒品

 
    KING: I haven’’t investigated every -- drugs --

 
    內(nèi)：他們都是小偷嗎？他們都是小偷和強(qiáng)盜嗎？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Are they all thieves? Are they all thieves and robbers?

 
    金：嚴(yán)重的毒品問題

 
    KING: Big drug problem。

 
    內(nèi)：你有這么多的與毒品相關(guān)的問題，250萬人，百分之一，每100名美國人就有一人在監(jiān)獄里。為什么？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You have so many drug-related problem, 2.5 million people, one percent -- out of 100 people in the United States, one person is in prison. Why?

 
    金：我們休息一會(huì)，我們將馬上回來。

 
    KING: Let me get a break and we’’ll come right back。

 
    內(nèi)：他們都是殺人犯？都是搶劫犯？他們都走私毒品？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Have they all killed? Have they all robbed? Have they all trafficked drugs?

 
    金：我不知道這與什么有關(guān)，好的，我們將馬上回來。

 
    KING: I don’’t know what that has to do with it. All right, we’’ll be right back。

 
    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 
    金：好的，就人權(quán)議題，不過，你必須承認(rèn)你對(duì)學(xué)生、言論自由的捍衛(wèi)者采取了嚴(yán)厲的打擊措施，人們因?yàn)榘l(fā)表言論、在街頭上舉行示威活動(dòng)而遭到逮捕，你不能說，伊朗在人權(quán)問題上有一個(gè)開放的良心，在人權(quán)問題持開放立場(chǎng)。你無法這樣說。

 
    KING: All right. On the human rights issue, though, you must admit that you have students, defenders of free speech that you have taken strong actions against, people in jail for just speaking their minds, protesting in the streets and arrested. You can’’t say that Iran has opened -- open conscience to human right -- is open for human rights to all. You can’’t say that。

 
    內(nèi)：甚至在我不在這里的時(shí)候，你可以說這樣的事情，對(duì)嗎？所以，你為何在我在這里的時(shí)候提及這樣的事情？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You can say these things even if I’’m not here, right? So why would you need to mention it while I am here?

 
    金：因?yàn)槟闶且粋€(gè)國家的元首，而且，

 
    KING: Because you’’re the head of the country and --

 
    內(nèi)賈德：你看來是在審判，你在審判，我問你問題，美國有250萬犯人，為什么？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It seems you are judging. You are judging. I asked the question. There are 2.5 million prisoners here and why --

 
    金：他們不是因?yàn)樵诮诸^發(fā)表觀點(diǎn)而入獄的，對(duì)這一議題進(jìn)行比較性研究，他們不是因?yàn)榕e一個(gè)標(biāo)語牌而入獄的。

 
    KING: They’’re not in prison for speaking out on the streets --

 
    KING: -- comparative study of this issue. KING: They’’re not in prison for holding up a sign。

 
    內(nèi)：請(qǐng)?jiān)试S我，在伊朗，沒有人因?yàn)閰⑴c抗議示活動(dòng)而入獄，沒有人因?yàn)閰⑴c抗議活動(dòng)而被送入監(jiān)獄。人們可以自由地舉行抗議活動(dòng)，但是如果在這里發(fā)生了抗議示威活動(dòng)，有人襲擊了警察并殺害了警察，你是否會(huì)獎(jiǎng)勵(lì)他們？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me -- in Iran, nobody is in prison because of participating in protests. Nobody went to prison because of participating in protests. Protests are free. But say if you had protests here and somebody attacked the police and killed the police, would you reward them?

 
    金：當(dāng)然不會(huì)。

 
    KING: Of course not。

 
    內(nèi)：你是否會(huì)獎(jiǎng)勵(lì)他們？為什么你會(huì)認(rèn)為伊朗將獎(jiǎng)勵(lì)他們？如果有人違反了法律，案件將交由法官處理，案情將得到研究和審理？為什么美國的犯人入獄是因?yàn)榉蓡栴}，而伊朗犯人入獄就是非法的？在伊朗也有法律過程。伊朗發(fā)生過人們?cè)诳棺h示威活動(dòng)時(shí)襲擊警察的事件，警察提出了控告，法官得處理這些案件。

 
    現(xiàn)在，在美國，你告訴我，那些在監(jiān)獄里的是罪犯，但在伊朗監(jiān)獄里的是自由追求者？這很可怕。為什么美國當(dāng)局總是試圖支持那些在伊朗違反法律的人？這并不有助于美國的形象，只會(huì)惡化美國的形象。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Would you reward them? Why would you expect Iran to reward them? If anyone violates the law, the case has to go before a judge and it has to be examined and taken care of? Why is it only in the United States that prisoners are in prison for legal issues, legally; whereas in Iran, they’’re in prison illegally? In Iran, too, there’’s a legal process. There’’s been incidents where there have been protests and people attack the police. The police file complaints and the judge takes care of the issue。

 
    Now, in the United States, you’’re telling me those in the prison are criminals, but in Iran those who are in prison are freedom seekers? That’’s awful. Why is it that U.S. authorities are always trying to support and back people who violate the law in Iran? This doesn’’t help the image of the United States. It just worsens it。

 
    金：我們將無法解決這一問題。在那一領(lǐng)域的另一問題：你是否允許伊朗進(jìn)行石刑？那名婦女獲得了很多的關(guān)注？你是否允許石刑在伊朗合法？

 
    KING: We’’re not going to resolve that. One other thing on that area; do you still permit stoning in Iran? We’’ve had a lot of attention paid to that lady -- about that lady. Do you permit stoning lawful in Iran?

 
    內(nèi)：我認(rèn)為我在過去幾天已向記者們就此給出了解釋。那名婦女的案件還沒有完全審理完畢，還沒有就此作出判決。她被控殺害了她的丈夫。我認(rèn)為如果有人被控謀殺了她的丈夫，人們就會(huì)涌上街頭，舉行支持她的集會(huì)？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that I have explained this in the past couple of days to a number of reporters. This lady’’s case has not been completely examined yet. No verdict has been issued yet. She is accused of being -- of murdering her husband. And I don’’t think in the world if someone is accused of murdering their husband, people would pour on the streets and rally in support of her。

 
    金：如果他們將對(duì)她實(shí)施石刑，人們將會(huì)支持她。

 
    KING: If they were going to stone her, they would。

 
    內(nèi)：她被控謀殺了她的丈夫，還沒有下達(dá)判決，沒有下達(dá)判決，沒有刑罰。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： She has been accused of the murder of her husband. There is no verdict issued. No verdict, no sentence has been passed。

 
    金：我所問的是

 
    KING: All I asked was --

 
    內(nèi)：這根本與石刑沒有關(guān)系，根本沒有作出石刑的判決。德國有人發(fā)表了這樣的不實(shí)傳聞。我們的司法部門已表示那一傳聞不實(shí)。

 
    但我想向你提一個(gè)問題，拉里-金先生，如果可以的話，我們過去這個(gè)時(shí)候曾在一起。在匹茲堡舉行過20國集會(huì)，10萬人舉行了示威活動(dòng)以抗議20 國集團(tuán)的經(jīng)濟(jì)政策。警方對(duì)他們發(fā)動(dòng)了猛烈的攻擊，許多人遭到痛毆，警方向他們潑熱水，許多人遭到逮捕。你在告訴我，抗議示威活動(dòng)在美國是自由的嗎？

 
    所以在美國，你是否認(rèn)為人們可以聚集在街頭，抗議猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)，10萬人？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： And it is not about a stoning case at all. There’’s no stoning sentence here at all. A person in Germany made this claim, which was untrue. Our judiciary also said it was a false statement。

 
    But I would like to ask a question to you, Mr. Larry King, if I may. Last year, we were here the same time. In Pittsburgh, there was a session. The Group 20; over 100,000 people protested against the economic policies of the G-20. The police attacked them violently. Many were beaten up with -- or hot water was thrown on their bodies and many were arrested. And you’’re telling me that protests are free in the United States?

 
    So here in the United States, do you think people can pour on the streets and protest against the Zionist regime, 100,000 people?

 
    KING: I’’ve got a time -- I’’ve got to take a break. We’’ll be right back。

 
    金：我們?cè)俅位氐焦?jié)目，你是否對(duì)美國有關(guān)在世貿(mào)遺址附近修建清真寺的爭議有何看法？

 
    KING: We’’re back with the president of Iran. Do you have an opinion about the controversy in the United States over the building of that Islamic Mosque near where the events of 9/11 took place?

 
    內(nèi)：我對(duì)此沒有看法。如果要建設(shè)一座建筑物，市政當(dāng)局或者市當(dāng)局要對(duì)此進(jìn)行研究，隨后告訴人們他們的想法和決定，所以決定應(yīng)由該市的人民和市當(dāng)局作出。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I have no opinion on it. If a building is to be built, the municipal authorities or the authorities for the city have to examine it and then tell people what they think and what the decision is. So the decision is for the people of this city and its authorities to make。

 
    金：你

 
    KING: Do you --

 
    內(nèi)：我能就此作出什么決定？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： What decision can I make over it?

 
    金：你可能對(duì)此有看法。

 
    KING: You might have an opinion。

 
    內(nèi)：我對(duì)此沒有任何看法，我認(rèn)為，作為一個(gè)基本規(guī)則，任何人都應(yīng)當(dāng)尊重祈禱場(chǎng)所、宗教場(chǎng)所和神圣的書籍。這是我的理解。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I don’’t have any opinion on it. I think that everybody should respect, as a general rule, places of worship, the sanctities that human beings have, and to respect divine books. That I understand。

 
    金：中東問題會(huì)談將很快再次在中東舉行，你對(duì)我們?cè)谀且坏貐^(qū)看到和平是否持樂觀態(tài)度？

 
    KING: Talks are about to take place again in the Mideast, about the Mideast. Do you have any optimism that we will see peace in that region ever?

 
    內(nèi)：是的，我非常樂觀。沒有希望，我們將無法更加努力地創(chuàng)造更好的生活。我認(rèn)為，如果把人們的權(quán)利還給他們，和平將會(huì)到來。如果巴勒斯坦人民的國家主權(quán)得到承認(rèn)，那里的問題將會(huì)得到解決。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes. I am very optimistic. Without hope, we cannot try harder to build a better life. I think if people’’s rights are given to them, peace will come. If the right to national sovereignty of the people of Palestine is recognized, the problems there will be resolved。

 
    金：以色列安全的保證和承認(rèn)以色列將如何處理？這應(yīng)得到解決？我的意思是，這是事情的兩個(gè)方面，是否是這樣？不是只有一方應(yīng)作出讓步？這是一個(gè)雙方的議題。

 
    KING: How about the guarantee of the safety of Israel and the recognition that Israel is a country? Does that have to be solved? I mean, is -- this is both sides, isn’’t it? It’’s not just one side has to give in to create peace. It’’s a two-sided issue。

 
    內(nèi)：你的意思是我們應(yīng)當(dāng)坐下來，為巴勒斯坦人民決定他們要什么？我認(rèn)為巴勒斯坦人民應(yīng)當(dāng)就此作出決定。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Do you mean that here instead we should sit and decide for the Palestinian people what they should want? I think the Palestinian people should decide about that --

 
    金：承認(rèn)另一個(gè)國家？好的，我們只剩下很少的時(shí)間了。我們將馬上回來。

 
    KING: -- recognize another state? All right. We only have a little time left. We’’ll be right back with our remaining moments。

 
    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 
    金：我們只剩下很少的時(shí)間。菲德爾-卡斯特羅不是資本家，你昨天稱，資本主義是世界的一個(gè)主要問題。卡斯特羅對(duì)你否認(rèn)猶太大屠殺持批評(píng)立場(chǎng)。他說，伊朗應(yīng)當(dāng)試圖去理解反猶太主義的獨(dú)特歷史？你將如何作出回應(yīng)？卡斯特羅肯定不是以色列的朋友。

 
    (NEWS BREAK) KING: We have only a few moments left. Fidel Castro, who is not a capitalist -- yesterday you said capitalism is the major problem in the world. Fidel Castro was critical of you for denying the Holocaust. He said that Iran should try to understand the unique history of anti-Semitism. How do you’’ respond to Castro? Certainly not a friend of Israel。

 
    內(nèi)：除了這一新聞中有關(guān)猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)的議題之外，卡斯特羅昨天向我發(fā)了一信息，稱那一聲明不屬實(shí)，他的聲明被錯(cuò)誤解讀了，他說的不是媒體所報(bào)道的，我對(duì)這一說法不抱任何意見。

 
    但我想問美國為何如此堅(jiān)決來保護(hù)猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)？美國政府與遠(yuǎn)在1萬公里之遙的猶太復(fù)國主義政權(quán)有何關(guān)系，美國有什么必要支持它？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Aside related to the Zionist regime issue this news -- Mr. Castro sent a message to me yesterday and said it was untrue, this statement, that his statements were interpreted differently, that he had said something different. So I have no opinion here on this statement。

 
    But I’’d like to ask why is there so much insistence in the United States to absolutely defend the Zionist regime? What is the relationship between the U.S. government, 10,000 kilometer across the ocean from the Zionist regime, and the need to support it?

 
    金：因?yàn)橛写罅康莫q太人僅僅因?yàn)槭仟q太人而遭到屠殺，七百萬、八百萬猶太人遭到屠殺。作為一個(gè)人道主義國家，我們對(duì)此很關(guān)注。許多猶太人來到這里生活。許多猶太人在以色列創(chuàng)造了一個(gè)國家，想在那里和平地生活。

 
    你是否知道，卡斯特羅稱，你應(yīng)當(dāng)認(rèn)識(shí)到世界仍然存在反猶主義，我們應(yīng)當(dāng)對(duì)此感到關(guān)切。

 
    KING: Because a massive group of people were annihilated just for being what they were. Seven Million were killed, eight million. So as a humanitarian country, we care about this. And many Jews came here to live. And many Jews created a country in Israel and wanted to live in peace。

 
    Don’’t you -- now, Castro did say you should recognize anti- Semitism exists in the world, and we all should be concerned about it。

 
    內(nèi)：這是否是一個(gè)真正的議題，美國政府想保護(hù)人權(quán)？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Is that the real issue, that the U.S. government wants to defend human rights?

 
    金：當(dāng)然。

 
    KING: Of course。

 
    內(nèi)：那些人是在哪里被殺害的？他們是在巴勒斯坦被殺害的嗎？是被巴勒斯坦人殺害的嗎？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Where were these people killed? Were they killed in Palestine? By the hands of Palestinians?

 
    金：他們?cè)谀睦锉粴⒑Σ⒉恢匾聦?shí)是他們?cè)獾搅送罋ⅰ?/p>

 
    KING: It doesn’’t matter where they were killed, it’’s the fact that they were killed。

 
    內(nèi)：哦，那么一百萬伊拉克人被殺就可以嗎？如果伊拉克人決定到美國來，占領(lǐng)美國，這是否被允許？他們是在伊拉克被殺的，你將允許他們來占領(lǐng)美國嗎？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Oh. Then it’’s all right for a million Iraqi people to be killed and then, would it be OK if they decided to come and occupy the United States? They were killed in Iraq. Would you allow them to come occupy the United States?

 
    金：你是在說美國犯下了種族屠殺的罪行，你是在說美國犯下了種族屠殺的罪行？

 
    KING: You’’re not saying the United States committed genocide? You’’re saying the United States committed genocide?

 
    內(nèi)：這是一個(gè)單獨(dú)的討論，是的，這樣的情況在伊拉克和阿富汗都發(fā)生了。但它是單獨(dú)的議題。我想問你，如果在一個(gè)國家，一些人的權(quán)利遭到侵犯，他們?cè)獾綁浩龋凑漳愕南敕ǎ绻愕恼f法是正確的話，這是否意味著他們可以去占領(lǐng)另一塊土地？這是否符合邏輯？如果我們按照這種邏輯行事，世界還會(huì)有安全嗎？

 
    1億人或者8千萬人在第二次世界大戰(zhàn)中喪生，如果他們要占領(lǐng)世界各地的二十個(gè)國家，那將是非常可怕的。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： That’’s a separate discussion. And, yes, it did happen in both Iraq and Afghanistan. But that’’s a separate issue. I like to ask you, if in a country someone’’s rights are violated, they’’re oppressed, assuming that your assumption, your statement is correct, does that imply that they can go and occupy another land? Is there any logic in that? If we were to follow that logic, will there be any security left in the world?

 
    In World War II, 100 million -- or 80 million people were killed. If they were to go occupy 20 countries around the world, that would have been terrible。

 
    金：以色列是一個(gè)合法國家。

 
    KING: Israel is a legal state。

 
    內(nèi)：問題在于，問題是，你剛才說這是因?yàn)楠q太大屠殺，你為何改變了說法？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： The question is -- come on. The question -- you just said yourself it’’s over the Holocaust. Why are you changing your statement?

 
    金：你是在說

 
    KING: You were saying --

 
    內(nèi)：我的問題是美國如此堅(jiān)決保護(hù)以色列的利益是什么？在世界許多地方，人們的人權(quán)遭到侵犯。你知道有多少美國印第安人被屠殺？你是否知道？

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： My question is what are the interests of the United States to -- in absolutely defending them. There are many parts of the world where human rights are violated. Do you know how many American Indians were killed? Do you know or not?

 
    金：我知道，我們的時(shí)間到了。

 
    KING: I know. We’’re out of time。

 
    內(nèi)：你是一名記者，你應(yīng)當(dāng)有這些問題的答案。

 
    AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You’’re a reporter. You should have the answers to these。

 
    金：我們沒有時(shí)間了，我們明年將與伊朗總統(tǒng)再次進(jìn)行討論。我是拉里-金，不要走開。

 
    KING: We’’re out of time. We’’ll pick this up next year with the president of Iran. I’’m Larry King. Don’’t go away。
 
 

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